Pyke
Smallfolk
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Post by Pyke on May 20, 2015 7:59:13 GMT -5
Anyone think we may see something similar in Winds of Winter? Maybe Harry the Heir...?
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Post by Quentyn Cleftjaw on May 20, 2015 8:06:39 GMT -5
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Kurts
Prince
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Post by Kurts on May 20, 2015 12:29:24 GMT -5
This is not going to go over well, but legally it wasn't even a rape. She didn't object or struggle. Crying does not constitute rape. She was a consensual participant, just not a particularly happy one. Dany and Drogo was closer to rape than this was. By medieval standards, that was probably par for the course. I imagine there were a lot of freshly flowered girls who cried through their wedding nights during the time period. Making Theon watch was the sketchy part. Compared to the dog rape in the books, this was a pleasant consummation.
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Post by Leona Redwyne on May 20, 2015 12:35:05 GMT -5
I agree that it was fairly normal by medieval standards and doesn't legally count as rape in their world but I am not sure how much choice Sansa really had about entering into the marriage. Littlefinger lets her think she has a choice but I'm not sure that is true. He could have forced her, as Cersei forced her to marry Tyrion. I think Sansa knew sex was likely but hoped for a reprieve. Either way, I doubt she wanted the sex to play out the way it did/
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Kurts
Prince
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Post by Kurts on May 20, 2015 12:42:14 GMT -5
What I find ironic about this is that no one would be making a peep if this happened in the books. Hell, folks would probably be angry if they didn't include it if that were the case. It reminds me of when all the show watchers threatened to stop watching after Ned died in season 1 and all the readers just laughed at them.
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Post by Leona Redwyne on May 20, 2015 13:14:14 GMT -5
If it happens with Sansa and Harry in TWOW you'll see some objections from me.
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Post by Robyn Stark on May 20, 2015 13:26:14 GMT -5
I don't believe what I am reading.
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Pyke
Smallfolk
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Post by Pyke on May 21, 2015 5:29:55 GMT -5
If it happens with Sansa and Harry in TWOW you'll see some objections from me. I think I recall Elio Garcia mention something about a controversial Sansa chapter in Winds of Winter...
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Post by Robyn Stark on May 21, 2015 6:55:15 GMT -5
It's not about it deviating from the books, it's that they deviated JUST to include a horrid rape scene.
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Post by Queen Joanna Lannister on May 21, 2015 7:41:58 GMT -5
This is not going to go over well, but legally it wasn't even a rape. She didn't object or struggle. Crying does not constitute rape. She was a consensual participant, just not a particularly happy one. Dany and Drogo was closer to rape than this was. By medieval standards, that was probably par for the course. I imagine there were a lot of freshly flowered girls who cried through their wedding nights during the time period. Making Theon watch was the sketchy part. Compared to the dog rape in the books, this was a pleasant consummation.
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Post by Ser Pounce on May 21, 2015 7:50:06 GMT -5
i never heard sansa give consent to the sex. im going to use my detective skills and assume she didnt want to have sex.
no consent + not wanting sex = ?
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Pyke
Smallfolk
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Post by Pyke on May 21, 2015 8:19:35 GMT -5
To be fair the scene did serve several narrative purposes.
1. It clearly demonstrated that Ramsey was incapable of controlling himself once he got "alone" with Sansa, no matter what the cost might be. I believe this will be a big contribution to his inevitable downfall. 2. It is the catalyst that will draw Theon and Sansa together. In the immediate preceding scene Sansa is shown refusing to even link arms with Theon and doesn't care about any repercussions this might mean for him. Now they've been through some serious shit together. This is the exact same thing that brought Theon and Jeyne Poole together in the books. 3. Perhaps tied in with no1: We already know that Ramsey is super crazy. It would have made zero sense if he hadn't done what he did. THAT would have been bad writing.
So we cannot discredit the scene as existing purely for shock value (even if it is HBO). It was an important scene for the narrative, and all parties involved.
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Post by Leona Redwyne on May 21, 2015 9:44:58 GMT -5
If it happens with Sansa and Harry in TWOW you'll see some objections from me. I think I recall Elio Garcia mention something about a controversial Sansa chapter in Winds of Winter... I heard that too but later I heard that the chapter was "controversial to some quarters of the fandom" or to "lemoncake fans." I also heard that the Alayne chapter currently featuring on GRRM's website as the TWOW sample was the chapter in question. I'm suspicious of that because I didn't find it remotely controversial so it might be a mistake. Though I know that when the comment was first made, most people thought it would involve either Sansa involved in sexual activities or Sansa collaborating in the death of Sweetrobin.
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Post by Robyn Stark on May 21, 2015 11:43:47 GMT -5
To be fair the scene did serve several narrative purposes. 1. It clearly demonstrated that Ramsey was incapable of controlling himself once he got "alone" with Sansa, no matter what the cost might be. I believe this will be a big contribution to his inevitable downfall. No it didn't, he was not out of control in that scene, all it showed, was he was being nice to her until she was powerless. Now she is his wife in the setting she is screwed, because as it's consumated regardless of her being raped and physically abused and emotionally abused, there is no escape other than his death or hers. Thta is part of the problem, it was a scene for theon, her pain and suffering was solely to give him a moment, They didn't go through anything together, if anything, now he is the person who stood by and watched as she was physically abused by her husband. it was the gratuitous rape of a character, he could have done any number of things to show he is a monster, but it is the needless SEXUAL violence that has people up in arms. Considering they changed the story JUST to include it. We do not need reminding Ramsey is a monster, even just implying rape, after making theon stay would have been better. But they did not even let Sansa's rape be about her. People are angry, because this is just the latest in a long line of D&D using women appallingly in the show, even compared to the books, because this is not an isolated incident.
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Kurts
Prince
Posts: 3,760
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Post by Kurts on May 21, 2015 13:10:55 GMT -5
Post all the memes you want, but the word rape is thrown around liberally enough as it is. It's a legal term, not an emotional one. It was perfectly legal within the realm of medieval law in which the show is set, where saying the vows was giving consent. Even today an attorney would be hard pressed to get that charge to stick given the circumstances. It was as much rape as Antony and Octavia's consummation in the Rome series was. It's like the liberal use of the word "depressed". Most people aren't depressed, they're just fucking sad and that overuse takes away from actual victims.
Saying that, it was absolutely and unequivocally a disgusting and atrocious act of sexual abuse.
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